I'm delighted to inform all of our readers that we will shortly be publishing interviews with a number of top ranking Okinawan martial artists. The interviews are supplied courtesy of Mike Clarke who is a top martial arts writer (see one of his books Roaring Silence in our book stores) and who has spent a significant amount of time studying in Okinawa.
Watch this space.
Regards
Bill.
Sunday, December 9, 2007
Interview with Rick Clark.
I'm delighted to present this interview with Rick Clark by Matt Sylvester. Rick is my main mentor in the martial arts and I've learnt a great deal from him over the years. This is a fairly introductory interview with him and I hope to publish more detail from him in the future. I highly recommend his books which are available from our book stores.
Regards
Bill
Interview by Matt Sylvester.
MS - 1. What was your first experience of the martial arts?
RC - Back in 1962 I first started in Boxing and then saw a Judo class being offered at our local YMCA – and thought this is for me. My parents gave their permission, reluctantly and truly believed I would last about a week. Well that was a long time ago and its one of the few times I have seen my parents wrong.
MS - 2. Why did you start the martial arts?
RC - Like many of us in the martial arts, I was looking for a form of self defense. I was not a very assertive kid and when the older or bigger kids sense weakness they are drawn like sharks to blood. I need to harden myself up so I could stand up for myself.
MS - 3. What has inspired you to keep training all this time?
RC - There is not enough room in an article to answer this question but the short answer is the friendships I have made over the years, around the world. You can go just about anywhere in the world and find a group of people with similar attitudes who will take you in and make you feel at home.
MS - 4. Do you feel that instructors should encourage their students to exceed the skill level of the instructor?
RC - Of course! That would be like not wanting research to be carried on in science, we would still think the world is flat, there would be no penicillin, cell phones, all of the progress we have made over the course of civilization would be nothing because none of the students would have outperformed their teacher. It’s our responsibility to increase the body of knowledge base in the martial arts and then pass that knowledge on to as many students as possible.
MS - 5. Should students be encouraged to look at other styles and at what level would you do this?
RC - Today its hard not to see other styles and even to practice. It’s not like 40 years ago when martial arts schools were far and few between. Now most cities will have several clubs or schools of various martial arts. As to when a student could cross train it’s up to the skill of the students and their ability to recognize that there is a difference between various arts. They need to be sufficiently aware that there are differences between arts and have the ability to keep the arts separate as needed by their instructors.
MS - 6. What styles have you looked at outside of your core style and why?
RC - I have been very lucky to have been around a lot of really good martial artists and have had the opportunity to practice quite a few arts over the years. Judo, Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan, Shotokan, Ju-Jitsu, Arnis, Ryukyu Kempo, Chinese Kempo, Isshin-ryu, Tai Chi Chuan, Hapkido, Aikido to name a few. The reason I trained with them is because they were available to me and I have always been inquisitive.
MS - 7. Mixed Martial Arts have come to the fore recently do you think they are evolution or devolution?
RC - To me mixed arts are in fact the more traditional arts. If you consider that when a warrior several hundred years ago trained they trained in arts with edged weapons, projectile weapons, grappling arts, and other arts, you would not play a round of golf with one club. What we consider as traditional martial arts have only been in existence a little over 100 years. Karate as we know it today did not come into existence until 1922.
MS - 8. What do you feel makes YOUR art unique?
RC - I don’t think the “art” is unique it the person who is unique. Each of us is unique and have our own way of performing techniques, and which techniques we prefer. Each of us will perform techniques different with age, experience, and physical ability. Even those who practice in the same school will still be unique in their application of that art.
MS - 9. Based on my own experience classes learn a given applications, do it a couple of times, and then move on to something else. Do you think that there is room in present dojos/dojangs to incorporate grappling as taught in the kata/patterns into the curriculum proper?
RC - I guess it depends on the time frame you will have a student, if you are teaching someone for only 3 or 4 years then no you don’t have time. But if you have students for 15 or more years you have the time to add a full list of most everything you want.
MS - 10. There are going to be a lot of defensive martial artists out there who will not like your approach to your style, they might even decry it. What would you say to them?
RC - Not much, they have their opinions and they are valid for their own individual purpose. Just as my definition of martial arts is valid for myself, I do not need the approval of individuals who have no connection to me. Self defense arts are just what they say, they are for the self not for others.
MS - 11. Your style is very practical. What about the claims that pressure points are at the heart of karate/judo/whatever bunkai. Does your style cover pressure points?
RC - For me it’s central to my martial art, in fact I believe they are central to all of the martial arts. Look at just about any text on martial arts and you are likely to find some mention of striking or grabbing various points of the body. If so many arts make use of them then it seems to me it must be important.
MS - 12. There is a lot of judo in karate bunkai. Would you recommend that students also study judo to get a better understanding?
RC - Sure, if nothing else for the fact it’s important for a martial artist to be able to take a fall properly. But really I see more Ju-jitsu type movements in Bunkai than Judo. Judo as you know was developed from several styles of Ju-jitsu and was made safe for practice by students in the school systems. Erwin Von Baelz, I believe played a major role in the formation of the concept of a martial art to be used as a means of physical education for the masses. Von Baelz influenced the founder of Judo and Kendo both of which were the first of the “Do” arts. (Matthew take a look at my article on Von Baelz on the web page for more information on this http://www.ao-denkou-kai.org/von_baelz.htm).
MS - 13. What is your favourite technique/pattern?
RC - For the past 12 years or so I have been concentrating on Naihanchi / Teki / Chulgi 1.
MS - 14. What is your greatest personal achievement to date?
RC - In life the greatest personal achievement any parent can have is the success of your children, both of whom have turned out to be wonderful young men that I am very proud of. My second greatest personal achievement is without a doubt the success of my students. Just as a parent is proud of the growth of their children, an instructor is proud of the success of those individuals they have influenced in even a small way.
MS - 18. Who do you most look up to/want to emulate?
RC - One of my major influences was my first instructor Wesley Hughes. He was my instructor, and tragically was involved in an automobile accident that left him paralyzed from the neck down. Once he was out of the hospital he was brought to the dojo in a wheel chair to coach the class from the side of the matt. That man gave me so much inspiration for his spirit I hope to be able to follow his example in his spirit of teaching and desire to share his knowledge.
MS - 19. Should children (for argument's sake, under 16s) be awarded black belts?
RC - It depends on the individual and the individual requirements of the style or association. Could someone get a black belt who was 15 and 9 months old? Or should it be 17? What is in an arbitrary age? For me you can have a 14 year old who is much better qualified to be a black belt than a 18 year old who spent the same amount of time in class. Plus you have to consider that Jigoro Kano was around the age of 21 when he founded Judo, which is a relatively young age.
MS - 20. Do mixed classes (adult and under-16s) discourage some people from starting?
RC - What about classes with senior students who are uncomfortable with trying to keep up with the 20 year old students? Once again this an arbitrary division that really has to be taken to an individual situation of the club and instructor.
MS - 21. Do you think that Grappling/MMA are institutionally sexist due to the very nature of the training?
RC - I don’t think grappling is sexist in and of it’s self, rather it’s the culture that makes it more sexist. Martial arts as a whole are probably sexist in many respects just by that fact that women are not socialized to be fighters. But of course that does not mean women can not be excellent fighters and I have met some truly exceptional martial artists who are women. Going back to Jigoro Kano, he taught women early on, and we have women who compete internationally in Judo.
MS - 22. What do you consider to be the core aspect of your martial art?
RC - For me and members of my group I think we look at the individual development of their personal system. I truly believe no one system holds all of the answers for the individual. Each person comes to the martial arts for different but similar reasons, like we all will go to the shop to purchase a new set of clothing we can’t get all get the same size, nor do we all want the same style and color. To me martial arts are somewhat the same, in that we all want the concept of the martial arts yet we need to find the style and system that matches our style. Then further we need to tailor the clothing (martial art) to fit our individual needs.
MS - 23. Do you consider conditioning to be a vital part of your training?
RC - At one point in time it was important to me, but as age and health considerations creep up on me my views have changed. I think when you are young and in your prime you should make use of this time and be at your peak. However, I have had some health problems and injuries that have limited my physical training so as a consequence I am not in the shape I would like to be in. But then you play the hand your are dealt and I must work at the level I can and try to push myself forward a bit more.
MS - 24. How do you condition yourself?
RC - In the past year or so I have tried to improve my diet, increase the amount of exercise, and work on forms.
MS - 25. Are pressure points valid or do you consider them to be ineffective/pointless/so full of mysticism that you don't bother.
RC - Of course pressure points are valid, they have been a part of the martial arts for centuries, and have been documented over the years. Traditional Chinese Medicine and Western Medicine have a place when you consider the application of pressure points. I look at pressure points from a TCM perspective ONLY for the nomenclature of naming and locating points. I do not believe there is any practical value in the attempt to explain why pressure points work using TCM theory. The example I most often use is that you could cut up little slips of paper with all of the various acupuncture points then put them in a hat and draw out any two or three. Then by using the various “laws” of acupuncture you would be able to construct a theory as to why you should get a knock out or severe pain from the application of these points. You have so many “laws” to draw on such as the cycle of creation, cycle of destruction, Yin / Yang, Midday / Midnight, Mother / Son etc. that you will find something that gives you an explanation.
Thus, if everything is included and nothing is excluded you do not have any predictive value to the paradigm. Equally WM can offer you a number of explanations as to why various techniques can work and will work. But yet at the same time when you ask a physician why it’s possible to knock out an individual by striking points on the arm or leg they just shake their head and say it should not be possible. So after a number of years of researching both perspectives I will take from each information that provides some explanation but fall back on my personal favorite the JHH paradigm. JHH is defined as Just Hit Here, once you know where the various points are located and the predictive results it is possible to say JHH and you will get these results.
MS - 26. What is your definition of a practical martial art?
RC - Once again this is a really important question because it falls back on what the individual wants out of the martial arts. What is practical for one person is not practical for another. This goes back to the principle of the art I teach where each individual begins to take personal responsibility for their own training and the results of that training. Even if you practice only one martial art, you have the choice as to what aspect of that art you practice and make your own. For example in Shotokan you have the opportunity to practice Kata or Kumite, you can practice for competition or for simply for the club. In addition if you look at Shotokan as Gichin Funakoshi taught in his book Karate Do Kyohan the original Japanese version, you will see him use a staff and sword. You see him utilizing locks and throws along with defensive techniques from the ground. So clearly this was part of his training at that time, in our time it seems that these aspects are not being practiced to a great extent. From my perspective someone who practices Shotokan should be able to research this aspect of their art and make this part of their training, and it could then be the thing that makes it practical for their own use.
MS - 27. What dan grade do you presently hold?
RC - I have been lucky enough to have been graded in several arts over the years an 8th dan is my highest rank. However, in the past few years I have been promoting my own organization Ao Denkou Kai and my own system Ao Denkou Jitsu. I don’t use a rank in my own system, because as the founder of the system I really don’t have a rank. Who would rank the founder of an organization and system? From a purely practical point of view as the founder I am able to promote individuals to 10th dan. But if I were ranked as a 10th dan in my own system I would only be able to promote to 9th dan. So for me its just as well to not be ranked as the founder of my own group.
MS - 28. At what level do you think Dan grades should stop?
RC - I am very comfortable with the kyu / dan grade system set up by Jigiro Kano, if something works well there is no reason to fix it.
MS Thank you for your time Rick.
RC My pleasure.
Visit our book stores and look under "other recommended titles" for books by Rick Clark.
Regards
Bill
Interview by Matt Sylvester.
MS - 1. What was your first experience of the martial arts?
RC - Back in 1962 I first started in Boxing and then saw a Judo class being offered at our local YMCA – and thought this is for me. My parents gave their permission, reluctantly and truly believed I would last about a week. Well that was a long time ago and its one of the few times I have seen my parents wrong.
MS - 2. Why did you start the martial arts?
RC - Like many of us in the martial arts, I was looking for a form of self defense. I was not a very assertive kid and when the older or bigger kids sense weakness they are drawn like sharks to blood. I need to harden myself up so I could stand up for myself.
MS - 3. What has inspired you to keep training all this time?
RC - There is not enough room in an article to answer this question but the short answer is the friendships I have made over the years, around the world. You can go just about anywhere in the world and find a group of people with similar attitudes who will take you in and make you feel at home.
MS - 4. Do you feel that instructors should encourage their students to exceed the skill level of the instructor?
RC - Of course! That would be like not wanting research to be carried on in science, we would still think the world is flat, there would be no penicillin, cell phones, all of the progress we have made over the course of civilization would be nothing because none of the students would have outperformed their teacher. It’s our responsibility to increase the body of knowledge base in the martial arts and then pass that knowledge on to as many students as possible.
MS - 5. Should students be encouraged to look at other styles and at what level would you do this?
RC - Today its hard not to see other styles and even to practice. It’s not like 40 years ago when martial arts schools were far and few between. Now most cities will have several clubs or schools of various martial arts. As to when a student could cross train it’s up to the skill of the students and their ability to recognize that there is a difference between various arts. They need to be sufficiently aware that there are differences between arts and have the ability to keep the arts separate as needed by their instructors.
MS - 6. What styles have you looked at outside of your core style and why?
RC - I have been very lucky to have been around a lot of really good martial artists and have had the opportunity to practice quite a few arts over the years. Judo, Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan, Shotokan, Ju-Jitsu, Arnis, Ryukyu Kempo, Chinese Kempo, Isshin-ryu, Tai Chi Chuan, Hapkido, Aikido to name a few. The reason I trained with them is because they were available to me and I have always been inquisitive.
MS - 7. Mixed Martial Arts have come to the fore recently do you think they are evolution or devolution?
RC - To me mixed arts are in fact the more traditional arts. If you consider that when a warrior several hundred years ago trained they trained in arts with edged weapons, projectile weapons, grappling arts, and other arts, you would not play a round of golf with one club. What we consider as traditional martial arts have only been in existence a little over 100 years. Karate as we know it today did not come into existence until 1922.
MS - 8. What do you feel makes YOUR art unique?
RC - I don’t think the “art” is unique it the person who is unique. Each of us is unique and have our own way of performing techniques, and which techniques we prefer. Each of us will perform techniques different with age, experience, and physical ability. Even those who practice in the same school will still be unique in their application of that art.
MS - 9. Based on my own experience classes learn a given applications, do it a couple of times, and then move on to something else. Do you think that there is room in present dojos/dojangs to incorporate grappling as taught in the kata/patterns into the curriculum proper?
RC - I guess it depends on the time frame you will have a student, if you are teaching someone for only 3 or 4 years then no you don’t have time. But if you have students for 15 or more years you have the time to add a full list of most everything you want.
MS - 10. There are going to be a lot of defensive martial artists out there who will not like your approach to your style, they might even decry it. What would you say to them?
RC - Not much, they have their opinions and they are valid for their own individual purpose. Just as my definition of martial arts is valid for myself, I do not need the approval of individuals who have no connection to me. Self defense arts are just what they say, they are for the self not for others.
MS - 11. Your style is very practical. What about the claims that pressure points are at the heart of karate/judo/whatever bunkai. Does your style cover pressure points?
RC - For me it’s central to my martial art, in fact I believe they are central to all of the martial arts. Look at just about any text on martial arts and you are likely to find some mention of striking or grabbing various points of the body. If so many arts make use of them then it seems to me it must be important.
MS - 12. There is a lot of judo in karate bunkai. Would you recommend that students also study judo to get a better understanding?
RC - Sure, if nothing else for the fact it’s important for a martial artist to be able to take a fall properly. But really I see more Ju-jitsu type movements in Bunkai than Judo. Judo as you know was developed from several styles of Ju-jitsu and was made safe for practice by students in the school systems. Erwin Von Baelz, I believe played a major role in the formation of the concept of a martial art to be used as a means of physical education for the masses. Von Baelz influenced the founder of Judo and Kendo both of which were the first of the “Do” arts. (Matthew take a look at my article on Von Baelz on the web page for more information on this http://www.ao-denkou-kai.org/von_baelz.htm).
MS - 13. What is your favourite technique/pattern?
RC - For the past 12 years or so I have been concentrating on Naihanchi / Teki / Chulgi 1.
MS - 14. What is your greatest personal achievement to date?
RC - In life the greatest personal achievement any parent can have is the success of your children, both of whom have turned out to be wonderful young men that I am very proud of. My second greatest personal achievement is without a doubt the success of my students. Just as a parent is proud of the growth of their children, an instructor is proud of the success of those individuals they have influenced in even a small way.
MS - 18. Who do you most look up to/want to emulate?
RC - One of my major influences was my first instructor Wesley Hughes. He was my instructor, and tragically was involved in an automobile accident that left him paralyzed from the neck down. Once he was out of the hospital he was brought to the dojo in a wheel chair to coach the class from the side of the matt. That man gave me so much inspiration for his spirit I hope to be able to follow his example in his spirit of teaching and desire to share his knowledge.
MS - 19. Should children (for argument's sake, under 16s) be awarded black belts?
RC - It depends on the individual and the individual requirements of the style or association. Could someone get a black belt who was 15 and 9 months old? Or should it be 17? What is in an arbitrary age? For me you can have a 14 year old who is much better qualified to be a black belt than a 18 year old who spent the same amount of time in class. Plus you have to consider that Jigoro Kano was around the age of 21 when he founded Judo, which is a relatively young age.
MS - 20. Do mixed classes (adult and under-16s) discourage some people from starting?
RC - What about classes with senior students who are uncomfortable with trying to keep up with the 20 year old students? Once again this an arbitrary division that really has to be taken to an individual situation of the club and instructor.
MS - 21. Do you think that Grappling/MMA are institutionally sexist due to the very nature of the training?
RC - I don’t think grappling is sexist in and of it’s self, rather it’s the culture that makes it more sexist. Martial arts as a whole are probably sexist in many respects just by that fact that women are not socialized to be fighters. But of course that does not mean women can not be excellent fighters and I have met some truly exceptional martial artists who are women. Going back to Jigoro Kano, he taught women early on, and we have women who compete internationally in Judo.
MS - 22. What do you consider to be the core aspect of your martial art?
RC - For me and members of my group I think we look at the individual development of their personal system. I truly believe no one system holds all of the answers for the individual. Each person comes to the martial arts for different but similar reasons, like we all will go to the shop to purchase a new set of clothing we can’t get all get the same size, nor do we all want the same style and color. To me martial arts are somewhat the same, in that we all want the concept of the martial arts yet we need to find the style and system that matches our style. Then further we need to tailor the clothing (martial art) to fit our individual needs.
MS - 23. Do you consider conditioning to be a vital part of your training?
RC - At one point in time it was important to me, but as age and health considerations creep up on me my views have changed. I think when you are young and in your prime you should make use of this time and be at your peak. However, I have had some health problems and injuries that have limited my physical training so as a consequence I am not in the shape I would like to be in. But then you play the hand your are dealt and I must work at the level I can and try to push myself forward a bit more.
MS - 24. How do you condition yourself?
RC - In the past year or so I have tried to improve my diet, increase the amount of exercise, and work on forms.
MS - 25. Are pressure points valid or do you consider them to be ineffective/pointless/so full of mysticism that you don't bother.
RC - Of course pressure points are valid, they have been a part of the martial arts for centuries, and have been documented over the years. Traditional Chinese Medicine and Western Medicine have a place when you consider the application of pressure points. I look at pressure points from a TCM perspective ONLY for the nomenclature of naming and locating points. I do not believe there is any practical value in the attempt to explain why pressure points work using TCM theory. The example I most often use is that you could cut up little slips of paper with all of the various acupuncture points then put them in a hat and draw out any two or three. Then by using the various “laws” of acupuncture you would be able to construct a theory as to why you should get a knock out or severe pain from the application of these points. You have so many “laws” to draw on such as the cycle of creation, cycle of destruction, Yin / Yang, Midday / Midnight, Mother / Son etc. that you will find something that gives you an explanation.
Thus, if everything is included and nothing is excluded you do not have any predictive value to the paradigm. Equally WM can offer you a number of explanations as to why various techniques can work and will work. But yet at the same time when you ask a physician why it’s possible to knock out an individual by striking points on the arm or leg they just shake their head and say it should not be possible. So after a number of years of researching both perspectives I will take from each information that provides some explanation but fall back on my personal favorite the JHH paradigm. JHH is defined as Just Hit Here, once you know where the various points are located and the predictive results it is possible to say JHH and you will get these results.
MS - 26. What is your definition of a practical martial art?
RC - Once again this is a really important question because it falls back on what the individual wants out of the martial arts. What is practical for one person is not practical for another. This goes back to the principle of the art I teach where each individual begins to take personal responsibility for their own training and the results of that training. Even if you practice only one martial art, you have the choice as to what aspect of that art you practice and make your own. For example in Shotokan you have the opportunity to practice Kata or Kumite, you can practice for competition or for simply for the club. In addition if you look at Shotokan as Gichin Funakoshi taught in his book Karate Do Kyohan the original Japanese version, you will see him use a staff and sword. You see him utilizing locks and throws along with defensive techniques from the ground. So clearly this was part of his training at that time, in our time it seems that these aspects are not being practiced to a great extent. From my perspective someone who practices Shotokan should be able to research this aspect of their art and make this part of their training, and it could then be the thing that makes it practical for their own use.
MS - 27. What dan grade do you presently hold?
RC - I have been lucky enough to have been graded in several arts over the years an 8th dan is my highest rank. However, in the past few years I have been promoting my own organization Ao Denkou Kai and my own system Ao Denkou Jitsu. I don’t use a rank in my own system, because as the founder of the system I really don’t have a rank. Who would rank the founder of an organization and system? From a purely practical point of view as the founder I am able to promote individuals to 10th dan. But if I were ranked as a 10th dan in my own system I would only be able to promote to 9th dan. So for me its just as well to not be ranked as the founder of my own group.
MS - 28. At what level do you think Dan grades should stop?
RC - I am very comfortable with the kyu / dan grade system set up by Jigiro Kano, if something works well there is no reason to fix it.
MS Thank you for your time Rick.
RC My pleasure.
Visit our book stores and look under "other recommended titles" for books by Rick Clark.
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